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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

DAY 2 - 23 APRIL 1996



CASE NO:&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;CT/00707

VICTIM:&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;SONNY BOY ZANTSI [brother]

VIOLATION:&#9;&#9;&#9;SHOT AND KILLED

TESTIMONIES FROM:&#9;NOMVUYO PRISCILLA ZANTSI

&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;MS QUAY



DR BORAINE:

Good afternoon Ms Zantsi.

MS ZANTSI: 

Good afternoon.

DR BORAINE:

Can you hear me all right?

MS ZANTSI:

Yes.

DR BORAINE:

Fine, I want to welcome you on behalf of the Commission and thank you very much indeed for coming. I notice you have someone with you, is she also going to testify, or is she just with you?



MS ZANTSI:

No testify.

DR BORAINE:

Okay, well come back to her in a moment, but we will start with you. And if you would please stand for the taking of the oath.



NOMVUYO PRISCILA ZANTSI&#9;&#9;Duly sworn states



DR BORAINE:

Thank you very much, will you be seated please. Ms Zantsi you have come to tell us about your brother Sonny Boy.

MS ZANTSI

Yes - ja.

DR BORAINE:

Were you here this morning?

MS ZANTSI

Yes.

DR BORAINE:

You were, so you know that you are in the company of many people who have suffered over the last years. You have come to tell us how he died and its a very sad story, its not easy for you to tell that story and to assist you and to help you Dumisa Ntsebeza will be asking you some questions. Is that all right?



MS ZANTSI

Yes.

DR BORAINE:

Thank you very much.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Thank you Dr Boraine, before we begin and I will be speaking to Ms Zantsi in Xhosa I would like her to settle in that chair, together with her witness whilst I try and make some opening remarks which I think it is [indistinct] for me to make.

Mr Chairman lets we forget whenever in this testimonies we will recall the atrocities of the past. We must always put them in proper context. In particular when we talk of 1976, especially against the backdrop of what was still happening in this country, ten years later as we heard in relation to the Guguletu 7.

But in particular when we talk about 1976, hence we forget, we must always remember that the violence that indulge the country, had been triggered by an unbelievably [indistinct] in particular by that notorious Minister of State MC Botha who was so determined in ramming down the throats of African children, a ghetto education that was to be imparted to them in a language that they had begun to hate, because they identified it with the oppressive apartheid regime.

So in transient was MC Botha that this language will be used as a medium of instruction. That even when he was advised that implementation of this programme would be resisted, he and his Government were not prepared to back down. Now Mr Chairman the cost was high, very high indeed.

The now end of Tape 8, side B  of many young people who died in 1976. It was a remarkable phenomenon it still is. That such a viscous State machinery was unleashed with such ferocious tenancy on school children. Life ammunition was used systematically as you will hear in this particular story, relentlessly by well trained police against children, whos mostly their weapons were stones.

Never in the history of the world Mr Chairman has so much State sponsored legal violence been so ruthlessly meted out against defenceless children, and such a well trained killing machine. All in defence of illegacy the system that the whole world had condemned as a crime against humanity in defence of apartheid as you will hear from this story.

The Security Forces in this country, waist a war against children in which they were not prepared to take [indistinct]. Sonny Boy Zantsi is one such victim who the Security Forces had to kill rather than take prisoner. He was only 15 years old.

Ms Zantsi I am no going to speak Xhosa, I would ask you in two or three minutes - you dont have to hurry, just please tell us who was - who was Sonny Boys parents, what was he to you, when he was shot. Just please tell us what kind of a child he was, what kind of things that he liked, and briefly tell us and on this day when you heard this, what did you do?

MS ZANTSI

I am Nomvuyo Priscila Zantsi.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

You must please come forward.

MS ZANTSI

My name is Nomvuyo Priscila Zantsi I was born here in Cape Town. Sonny Boy is my brother. His parents are Wilson Zantsi and his mother is Rosy Zantsi.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

When this happened was his mother alive?

MS ZANTSI

Sonny Boys mother died in September. That is now my mother.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

In other words while this happened were you still mourning your mothers death.

MS ZANTSI

No we were mourning Sonny Boys death in 1976. 

ADV NTSEBEZA:

I would like us to focus on this particular day when all this happened. When did you hear this and how did you hear it - or lets just start like this. On this morning, when did you see Sonny Boy?







MS ZANTSI

The last time I saw Sonny Boy it was 1976 on the 16th of September, it was on a Thursday. He was in the house the whole day, there was just chaos on the 16th. 

ADV NTSEBEZA:

When you say it was chaos what was actually happening?

MS ZANTSI

There was a riot, a riot by students, he wasnt at school that day, although he was suppose to be at school. We were watching the vans passing by and we were running away from tear gasses.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

What kind of vans are these?

MS ZANTSI

These vans are - were police vans. On this day, the 16th he was with us in the house, but on that day he left in the afternoon around five. But we didnt ask him where he was going. While we were still sitting in the house, we saw a group of people. They told us that Sonny Boy has been shot at 3A.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

At 3A, where do you live, in which NY do you live?

MS ZANTSI

I live at NY50.





ADV NTSEBEZA:

Is that near NY3?

MS ZANTSI

Yes it is, when you count from where I live, you can count three houses from where I live where he was shot.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

In other words he was shot very near where he lived?

MS ZANTSI

Yes he did. 

ADV NTSEBEZA:

When you heard this, what did you do?

MS ZANTSI

When I heard this, I was very disturbed, I was the first one to go there, when I got there the place was full of boers with guns, I just went through them I was shouting for his name Sonny Boy - Sonny Boy I heard a certain voice somebody just said look in the dirty box, look in the thrash bin. Look into the big van of the police.

When I got there I saw him in this big van. He was lying on the [indistinct] position. I could see, I could identify his pants and the other clothes that he had, he was wearing a pair of brown a maroon corduroy pants. I went there, I went straight into this big police van I shouted his name, he didnt answer back. 





ADV NTSEBEZA:

Were you sure that he was still alive at that time or are you not sure about this?

MS ZANTSI

No I wasnt sure - I wasnt sure I he was still alive. I thought if he was just asleep, or he was in pain, but he didnt answer back.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

What happened after that?

MS ZANTSI

After that there were boers standing next to this police van.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Did you understand that, it means why did they throw the stones - did they tell you that there was an accident?

MS ZANTSI

No they didnt tell me anything.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

They just told you that [intervention]

MS ZANTSI

No they didnt do anything, but somebody just said these kids were throwing stones and this was - was standing next to this big van with guns. I was just next to the door of the - of the truck. I was shouting his name and was looking at him.





ADV NTSEBEZA:

Where there stones next to where this van was?

MS ZANTSI

No there were no stones.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

How many police were there?

MS ZANTSI

They were countless, they were over 20 there were some standing next to a corner. Some was surrounding this big van -some was standing next to the gate, next to the houses. 

ADV NTSEBEZA:

How many kids were there in the van?

MS ZANTSI

There were two, Sonny Boy was one of them.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Were these men armed?

MS ZANTSI

Yes they were, they were armed with rifles. 

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Lets just assume that Sonny Boy and his friends were throwing stones, as you know the situation, Sonny Boy was 15 years, how old was the other one? How old - how old was this other one?

MS ZANTSI

Sonny Boy was 15 years.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

No this other one - this other one with Sonny Boy.

MS ZANTSI

This other one, it looks like he was 19 years.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

When you say - when you saw all these armed - heavily armed policemen, did you think that - when they were throwing stones by these kids and did you think that they were going to shoot back?

MS ZANTSI

I didnt expect them to shoot as much as they did. What I expected was they should have just arrested them, just put them into the police station and be asked questions in stead of that of being shot.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Going back to where you - where you said you heard that the children threw stones, what else do you remember?

MS ZANTSI

When one of these policeman asked why did the children throw stones, I didnt answer. I didnt - I didnt even know what happened after that. I just turned around and I - apparently I went home I cant remember if I did, the process of actually going home.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

You think that you fainted?

MS ZANTSI

Yes I think so.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Now lets come back now, lets come back to the story by - as told by Regina. According to what you have heard, this particular policeman which actually killed this man, when did you hear this?

MS ZANTSI

I heard that afterwards, the same day - the same day that Sonny Boy was killed people came in for example our next-door neighbour, one of the policeman, one of the boers with this scarf that he had around his neck, he was driving a red Valiant car. Thats how - thats how this was.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

What did the people say to you?

MS ZANTSI

Where in the house?

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Yes.

MS ZANTSI

They just told us - they were telling my father we were put into the room then we just heard everybody crying.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Is that when you heard that Sonny Boy had died?

MS ZANTSI

No we didnt hear this immediately, my father left on that day, he went to the police station. And when he asked about him at the police station nobody knew anything about Sonny Boy he was told Sonny Boy is not here. And then he came back to tell us no he couldnt find Sonny Boy. So went to Salt River thats where he found Sonny Boy. He came back with his clothes, he was already dead by that time. So my father came back with Sonny Boys clothes.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

About the witness of his clothes, what is the report about that?

MS ZANTSI

The reports about this is they were shot next to a bathroom thats how his clothes got wet. 

ADV NTSEBEZA:

And this house that they were shot in is it Ms Quays house?

MS ZANTSI

Yes it is.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

The one you asked to tell this story about Sonny Boys shooting? 

MS ZANTSI

Yes it is.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

We will talk to her later then she will tell us how did this happen. Now about you, Is there any Court that you went to regarding the death of your son - of Sonny Boy, somebody must have a report about this.



MS ZANTSI

My father told us that he went to beg, there were many from Wynberg he came with this - they said at Wynberg there is nothing they can do, there is no case really because they threw stones at the police.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

In other words - in other words nobody was at - nobody was put into trial because of Sonny Boys death, because the police were doing their job.

MS ZANTSI

We were told that nobody is at fault.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Is there any letter that you or your father got from the President of South Africa or any Minister something that showed how the Government regretted this whole shooting.

MS ZANTSI

No we didnt get any letter, where did you get letters that show - that show the regret. The only letters that we got were postcards from - from abroad. They were not even written in English, they were written in a language that we couldnt understand. But we could see that these were postcards that were showing sympathetic emotions.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Did any police come to you or anything coming from the police just to inform you that your son has died in this way? 



MS ZANTSI

No there were no police who came.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

No you talked about your father, how did your father feel about this. How did it affect him? 

MS ZANTSI

This hurt him a lot, such that after a while he wasnt well.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

When you say this, you actually show it with your hand, what does that mean? 

MS ZANTSI

It means that he - he later was very much affected mentally even now in September when my mother was just passed away he got worst.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Do you think that he - this revived his illness because he was still mourning your brothers death? Dont worry Nomvuyo these things scare me too, but we have to talk about them so that the world can know about them, even though they still hurt. Try to endure, can we go on?

MS ZANTSI

Yes we can.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

So do you think your father was hurt about this because while he was still mourning over his sons death his mother died, especially as Sonny Boy. What kind of a person was he?

MS ZANTSI

Sonny Boy was very good, he was the last born. Sonny Boy was even very good at school, he went to church a lot, he was training karate, he was also in a soccer club called Orients. He had a future and he told himself that he was going to be somebody and he didnt drink or smoke, he kept busy - he kept himself busy by all this things that Ive just mentioned especially with school.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

If you - if he was still alive, do you think he was still going to be at school?

MS ZANTSI

Oh! yes I am sure he would be even out of school by now.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Now where is your father right now?

MS ZANTSI

Sonny Boys father can you please repeat that. Sonny Boys father died in 1993.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

And now you are the only ones left?

MS ZANTSI

Yes.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

If the Commission had anything to do for you, what is your wish or wishes? What do you think the Commission can do for you, how can we help? 

MS ZANTSI

The only thing I can ask the Commission is that usually on - every - every June 16th we know that Sonny Boy died. This - we are reminded of this by the newspapers and the TV when we see Hector Petersens picture we actually hoped that we will also have something that they did to Hector Petersen, something with his name in it. And if its just a stone with his name on it just like Hector Petersens case I would be very satisfied with that.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Oh! thank you.

CHAIRPERSON

Thank you.

MS ZANTSI

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON:

Is there anyone now who has questions, Denzil? 

ADV POTGIETER:

Weve received some information about the incident involving your brother there was a inquest held into the death and youve already indicated that it was found that no-one was liable for the death. It was alleged that he was engaged in throwing stones at the time. Can I just ask you according to the findings as well the official findings he died as a result of a gunshot wound to the head, is that correct?

MS ZANTSI

Yes that is the truth, he was shot in the head.

ADV POTGIETER:

And we have been given some information about the specific date of the incident, perhaps I can just confirm that. The date is given as the 16th of September 1976 would that be correct? 

MS ZANTSI

Yes thats true.

ADV POTGIETER:

And just a - just a final issue, you say that there was indications that somebody who was wearing a red scarf was - was somehow involved in the incident, is that so?

MS ZANTSI

Yes thats true, it was a red scarf.

ADV POTGIETER:

And you say this as a police [indistinct]

MS ZANTSI

Yes it was a boer policeman. He was driving a red Valiant.

ADV POTGIETER:

And what was the - what was the - what was said was he in uniform or what was he - how was he - how was he dressed?

MS ZANTSI

They say he was wearing his uniform but I didnt see him, but I only saw the van, but it was passing my house speedily, I was standing next to the gate. But I didnt know that, that was the car that was shooting people. I only saw that there is this Valiant that was shooting at people.

ADV POTGIETER:

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON:

Mary, no.

DR BORAINE:

Ms Quay, good afternoon Ms Quay.

MS QUAY:

Good afternoon.

DR BORAINE:

You are going to give evidence that you actually saw Sonny Boy being killed but before you do that, I must ask you to please stand and take the oath.



MS QUAY&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;Duly sworn states









DR BORAINE:

Thank you please be seated. May we thank you very much indeed for coming with your friend and Mr Ntsebeza will lead you now, thank you.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Now thank you Dr Boraine. Mamma I am going to speak Xhosa with you. You can take your earphones off your ears its all right so that we can talk directly to each other. Mamma I just want you to say briefly and tell the Archbishop and his Commission what you saw on that day. I found out that you - you are 71 years old, is that so?

MS QUAY

Yes it is.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Is your house at 3A no 48 is that so?

MS QUAY

Yes it is.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Could you please raise your voice mamma so that we can be able to hear you clearly. Do you live at 3A?

MS QUAY

Yes I do.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

I thank you, I find that during this period it was chaos at Guguletu during the deaths of this young boy, is that so?

MS QUAY

Yes.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Is your house next to the road?

MS QUAY

Yes it is.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

What kind of chaos or riots were these?

MS QUAY

These were children and policemen making all this chaos, but the kids were not fighting. The chaos now was caused by kids running away from the police. They would be running away - they would be running away from the police into the houses.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Now does it mean mamma you had to open all the doors?

MS QUAY

Yes thats so. We use to close the front door and the back door and hide inside.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Is that when now you had to hide?

MS QUAY

Yes that it, because we were afraid of the boers. 





ADV NTSEBEZA:

On this particular day did the same thing happen, did you see people running from the road coming into the houses?

MS QUAY

Yes it is.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Was there a time when you had to run and look through the back window.

MS QUAY

Let me explain this, our houses are carriages I am on the third door, there is this corner house, we didnt have slabs at that time, there were only fences. These kids came running, when we saw them coming in running, we closed the doors, we went to hide into the room its not a long distance from that corner to where we live. Some had to jump over the fence and they would come from the 56th road.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

When you said they are hiding, in the bathroom, which bathroom was this?

MS QUAY

Yes this was my bathroom.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

So in other words they were at the back of your house?

MS QUAY

Yes it is.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

So these places are the same places that people wash their clothes in at the back?

MS QUAY

Yes it is because the toilets are at the back, they are not in the houses.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

So these people are actually in your own toilet?

MS QUAY

Yes.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

So mamma what did you see?

MS QUAY

We saw a white man, he stood next to the bathroom. The bathroom of no 47, I stay at no 48. This white man shot with something.

INTERPRETER:

The witness is showing like he is showing the rifle.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Did the white man have a rifle in his hands?

MS QUAY

Yes he did.







ADV NTSEBEZA:

Were end of Tape 9, side B  in my own house - from no 47 next-door to my house at no 48. We saw him dragging two of these children one already dead. How was he dragging these two children?

MS QUAY

He was holding them their legs just like this, he was dragging them. The other one was just about to die, he was still foaming. He was still gasping.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

And after that did he - did he put them into a van?

MS QUAY

No we didnt see that - we didnt see them putting them in the van, but we saw him - we saw him digging up the hole for the brains of this other boy.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Please mamma repeat that when you say this, when you saw this hole, did you see these brains?

MS QUAY

Yes we did.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Whos brains were these?

MS QUAY

They were Sonny Boys brains, it is the white man who dug hole for his brains.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Did you know Sonny Boys father as a neighbour?

MS QUAY

Yes I did.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

As you knew him how did this affect him?

MS QUAY

I dont think this - he took well - he took it well because even then you could see that mentally he was very much affected. This continued with him until he died.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Could you see that he still had no hope for his life?

MS QUAY

Yes I did.

ADV NTSEBEZA:

Thank you.

DR BORAINE:

Ms Quay if I could just [indistinct] clarity about your evidence, you were standing in your house looking through the window is that right? 

MS QUAY

Yes thats true I was in my bedroom.

DR BORAINE:

And you saw Sonny Boy?



MS QUAY

We - I saw him, but he was already dragged - he had already been dragged by that time by this white man. We saw him when he was already dead, it was Sonny Boy I know that he has an oval shaped head we could identify him.

DR BORAINE:

So you didnt see him actually being shot?

MS QUAY

We only saw a man firing a shot, we saw the men coming, this white man coming and picked them up and he dragged them.

DR BORAINE:

Was there one man or more than one man, policeman?

MS QUAY

No it was only one man he took them out of the yard.

DR BORAINE:

Was he wearing anything around his head?

MS QUAY

Yes he had something around his head.

DR BORAINE:

What was it?

MS QUAY

It was just something red around his head.





DR BORAINE:

Now before you heard the gunshots, did the policeman shout and warn or say anything at all?

MS QUAY

No there were no shootings.

DR BORAINE:

Was there just shots?

MS QUAY

Thats right.

CHAIRPERSON:

Priscila and you mamma thank you very much, we know that this - this revival of all this atrocities - we know that all these hurt. We hope that by doing this, that this is going to heal you too, all your wounds will also be healed.

The reason why we tell all these stories is because we want our nation to know everything that was done in the past. So that what we have today, this new freedom, so that everybody should know that we got it at a very high price, thank you.



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